Program: Government releases AI plan

Sabra Lane: Good morning. Welcome to AM. It's Tuesday, the 2nd of December. I'm Sabra Lane coming to you from Nipaluna, Hobart. 

More than a thousand people are confirmed dead in wild weather across South and Southeast Asia. Torrential rain causing flash floods and landslides have devastated Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia during the past week, while in Sri Lanka, Cyclone Ditwah has battered communities, killing more than 330 people. Rescue operations are underway, but as Asia editor Karishma Vyas reports, the challenge is enormous.

Karishma Vyas: Helicopters in Indonesia's western island of Sumatra prepare for another aid drop to communities stranded for days after floods and landslides swept through their homes. Around 600 people have been killed, many in remote villages that were already isolated. Husnidar, who lives in Bireuen village in Aceh, says she could salvage nothing.

Husnidar: During the flood, everything was gone. I wanted to save my clothes, but my house came down.

Karishma Vyas: Days of torrential rain triggered a tsunami of mud that swept into communities, destroying the very infrastructure that is now needed to deliver help. Roads are blocked, there is no electricity and phone lines are down. Marina, another resident in the village, has been lying on a mat in the open since she was injured.

Marina: I can't go because my motorbike was swept away. I couldn't evacuate because I can't walk. The flood carried me.

Karishma Vyas: The true scale of the disaster is only just emerging as weather conditions improve, but survivors say help is still a long way away.

Mustafa Hasyim: We haven't received medical aid from the government either. We severely lack food, even rice, we've got none at all. We did get some aid, but as of today we've only received two bags of rice.

Karishma Vyas: Raging floodwaters in Thailand and Malaysia last week stranded tens of thousands of people for days. More than 170 died and some 4 million people have been affected. In Sri Lanka, the humanitarian crisis caused by Cyclone Ditwah is only just unfolding. At least 400 people have been killed there and almost as many are still missing. Climate expert Dr Salmon Jacob from World Vision says extreme weather is simply the new reality.

Salmon Jacob: I think we need to be anticipating similar instances in the immediate future because of the way the climatic trends have shown us. So we need to be more prepared.

Karishma Vyas: As countries across Asia brace themselves for the long road to recovery, many are left wondering when the next disaster will strike and if they will be better prepared next time. This is Karishma Vyas in Bangkok reporting for AM.

Sabra Lane: The Federal Government's releasing its blueprint for the development of the artificial intelligence industry in Australia and it's shying away from mandatory guardrails to manage the worst harms of AI. Instead it says if more regulation is needed to address bad actors or broader harms the Government will intervene. The plan's aimed at speeding up the development and spread of AI and a new AI safety institute will monitor its progress. Samantha Dick reports.

Samantha Dick: Hey Siri, tell me the economic benefits of embracing artificial intelligence.

Siri: Okay, I found this on the web.

Samantha Dick: Assistant Minister for Science, Technology and the Digital Economy Andrew Charlton says the benefits of AI to Australia are immense.

Andrew Charlton: If we get it right we can lift our productivity quite significantly.

Samantha Dick: The Federal Government's first national plan to manage AI outlines a roadmap to accelerate its development in Australia while also mitigating the harms. The long-awaited plan was originally intended to include strict rules governing the development of high-risk AI under a standalone act to regulate the field. Instead the Government has taken a lighter path.

Andrew Charlton: The Government has already shown a willingness to make changes to our existing frameworks where changes are required to keep Australians safe.

Samantha Dick: Instead of a standalone AI act or other sweeping reforms, the Government will work with states and territories on minor opportunities to clarify existing rules regarding consumer protections, review the application of copyright laws to AI and review AI regulation in healthcare. It comes after the Productivity Commission earlier this year urged the Government to pause its work on mandatory AI guardrails and only introduce specific regulation as a last resort to avoid missing out on a potential $116 billion boost to the economy. Rebecca Johnson, an AI ethicist from the University of Sydney, says tweaking existing frameworks to manage emerging AI problems is fraught with risk.

Rebecca Johnson: Trying to regulate AI agents, which is what we're moving towards now with old laws, is like trying to regulate drones with traffic rules.

Samantha Dick: But Dr Charlton says the Government's new $30 million AI Safety Institute, starting next year, aims to identify and advise Government on blind spots as they arise.

Andrew Charlton: The AI Safety Institute is a capability at the heart of Government which can constantly be adapting, constantly be scanning the horizon for new risks.

Samantha Dick: A key goal of the Government's new AI plan is to ensure all Australians can share its benefits, no matter their age, location, English language skills or their abilities. Julian Thomas, Director of the ARC Centre for Automated Decision Making and Society at RMIT University, says the Government will need to work hard to make that a reality.

Julian Thomas: The risk is that the people who really have the most to benefit from good digital services, from digital services that communicate with people effectively and well, are actually the least likely to be able to take full advantage of those things.

Sabra Lane: It's Julian Thomas from RMIT, ending that report by Samantha Dick.

It's been a year since the Federal Government formally responded to the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicides and we'll discuss progress on the recommendations with the Minister responsible, Matt Keogh. The focus is also on the Albanese Government's decision to merge three departments within Defence into a new independent delivery agency. All those offices combined are responsible for about 40 per cent of Defence spending. This year, the Department's budget is $59 billion. The Minister joined me a short time ago. Matt Keogh, welcome back to AM.

Matt Keogh: Great to be with you, Sabra.

Sabra Lane: The Government claims this new procurement agency will be independent. How can it be when it reports to the Minister who's also in charge of procurement?

Matt Keogh: The independence that we're talking about is being independent from the rest of the Defence Department and the ADF and that's an independence that ensures that it is able to focus directly on delivering those capabilities that our Defence force needs and not tied into all the other things that the Department of Defence is doing.

Sabra Lane: Okay, so blowouts with procurements and in terms of costs and delays, that will become a thing in the past once this agency is up and running July 2027?

Matt Keogh: So what we want this delivery agency to be able to do is to make sure that we're getting the best bang for buck and that's about making sure we get the most out of every Defence dollar spent on capability but also making sure we're getting those capabilities in a timely manner. That's exactly what we want this to deliver.

Sabra Lane: Alright, let's turn to the Royal Commission recommendations. It's been 12 months now since the Government formally responded. Labor set aside half a billion dollars to fast-track veterans' compensation claims but it ended up resulting in turbocharging a cottage industry of veteran advocacy with some unethical practitioners advocating for veterans. Profiteering and fee gouging were the result. In one case it's alleged the charging of $20,000 for one day's work. Will you regulate the sector?

Matt Keogh: So we're going to look at doing that, Sabra, absolutely. We've just had a Senate inquiry look into what's happening in the advocacy space. It's quite concerning. Veterans have been raising this directly with me and with others. Now, advocacy in terms of supporting our veterans is something that's happened on a volunteer basis for over 100 years. So we don't want to just blithely walk into this space and over-regulate it. It's important that we get it right but it's important that we protect veterans as well. That's something that we will look to do, working with the sector on how we can make sure that we are protecting veterans from being overcharged, from being gouged, from losing a large percentage of their compensation payments to veteran advocates that are operating in an unscrupulous way and making sure that they're able to access a veteran that does not charge a fee, that they're able to access advocates that are properly trained, insured and that they are being always kept up to date on what we are doing in DVA. And that's something that the new Institute of Veteran Advocates will be able to provide.

Sabra Lane: Okay, so that Senate committee that you referenced did recommend that this professional paid advocacy network or workforce be set up to replace the current ad hoc volunteer service. Will that be this role of the Institute?

Matt Keogh: So the role of the Institute, which has already been set up, one of the key things that the veteran advocacy community was already trying to work towards was how do they set better standards in terms of training, in terms of the conduct of advocates. People as I say have been concerned about these charging practices that we've seen develop over recent time.

Sabra Lane: Practices? It's price gouging and it's ripping people off.

Matt Keogh: Oh, I'm not defending it, Sabra, at all. What we're seeing is quite, in some areas, quite unscrupulous. But we've also got great ex-service organisations that receive funding from government to provide, that employ advocates, that provide great free service to our veterans. We want to make sure that that continues. We're going to be increasing funding through that program that supports that work. We have the DVA Advocate Register and I always say to any veterans or family members of veterans that are looking to access an advocate, go and check out the DVA Advocate Register. All of the people on there are properly accredited and trained. You can access those advocates free of charge to the veteran. That's the best place to go. But we need to deal with this issue of overcharging, of unscrupulous charging practices that we've seen and that's something that we are going to do and we're going to talk to the sector about how we best do that so that we stop the bad things from happening but also don't make it overly burdensome on those volunteers that are doing such amazing work supporting our veterans.

Sabra Lane: Sure. Was that an unforeseen consequence of throwing so much money at this so quickly?

Matt Keogh: In terms of the advocates, what we'd seen is this has actually developed under the, something that started under the previous government because of the backlogs that had developed in the system because one of the things these advocates were claiming quite falsely was if you pay us this large sum of money to support you with your claim, our claim that we lodged for you will go through DVA faster. Now, that wasn't true at all. It's still not true today. And so they were trying to milk a system on the basis of the problems that we've seen. We've now invested in DVA. We've got claims moving much faster, but those people are still acting in the system and that's what's been highlighted by the recent Senate inquiry. And I want to thank Senator Lambie for working with me on getting that inquiry set up so that we can now benefit from the evidence that it's heard, the recommendations that the Senate inquiry has made and work with the veteran advocacy sector to make sure that we create a properly regulated system there to protect our veterans.

Sabra Lane: The last time we spoke in September, the government was still taking advice on the terms of reference into an inquiry into sexual misconduct within defence. The government's now asked the Human Rights Commission to do this work and it will now consult on those terms of reference. Why is it taking so long?

Matt Keogh: So what we have, certainly when it comes to the Royal Commission, there's 122 recommendations. I would love all of them to have been done by yesterday, but they do take time to work through and staging them properly and rolling them out is something that we're committed to doing, but doing it urgently. And you saw that with our implementation of the recommendation 122 to set up a statutory oversight body, which we legislated by February of this year. But when it comes to these terms of reference, we did do the work of developing those terms of reference, but we knew it was also important that there was that opportunity for open engagement in what those terms of reference for the inquiry look like. We've asked the Australian Human Rights Commission to undertake that work. Those draft terms of reference will be out today for people to look at, to provide that feedback so that we can get this inquiry started next year.

Sabra Lane: Minister, thanks for joining the program.

Matt Keogh: Been great to be with you, Sabra.

Sabra Lane: And that's Matt Keogh, the Federal Minister for Veterans Affairs.

Woolworths has been accused of exploiting affordable housing schemes to push through new supermarket and apartment complexes rejected by local councils. Pat McGrath from ABC Investigations reports.

Pat McGrath: A suburban shopping strip in Melbourne's inner east is bracing for change.

Adrian Purnell: It's actually quite sad because it's going to become extremely congested. It's really going to destroy the character.

Pat McGrath: Retired engineer Adrian Purnell is part of a group of Glen Iris locals who fought Woolworths planned new supermarket and five-storey apartment building, even collecting his own traffic data to argue against the project in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal three years ago. The tribunal confirmed an earlier council decision to block the supermarket's development, But Woolworths has since circumvented the local planning system, using a fast-track scheme that lets developers get approval from the State Planning Minister if its project includes at least 10% affordable rental housing.

Adrian Purnell: A complete kick in the guts. You then start to question why they have the system. If you go into all this effort, you have your say, you have your voice, it feels democratic and then you just get absolutely overridden.

Pat McGrath: Plans lodged through the Victorian Development Facilitation Program show Woolworths removed one storey from its original plans and added six affordable units, separate to the main complex.

Adrian Purnell: I think they've totally exploited, in my opinion, a loophole in the system where they've just tacked these on the side, they're not even part of the original development and by doing that they've been able to get it through.

Pat McGrath: The Victorian and New South Wales governments have both launched fast-track schemes to help meet a target of 40,000 new and social affordable homes by 2029, which was set out in the 2022 National Housing Accords. Michael Fotheringham from the Australian Housing and Urban Research Institute says the schemes are good in principle, but they could be vulnerable to developers looking to push ahead with projects without properly integrating affordable housing.

Michael Fortheringham: The good developments of mixed tenure, there is no distinction between the properties that are social or affordable housing and those that are owner-occupied or privately rented.

Pat McGrath: He says the Woolworths Glen Iris development could become an example of what's been described in affordable housing developments overseas as a poor door.

Michael Fortheringham: Using that to get fast-track approval seems exploitative. It'll be very clear visual signals to everyone in the community that this is lesser, this is poorer housing.

Pat McGrath: Woolworths is also using fast-track schemes for new apartment buildings in Elsternwick in Melbourne and Neutral Bay and Gladesville in Sydney, all of which contain affordable housing. The retailer didn't respond to specific questions, but in a statement said, In line with federal and state government policies, we'll continue to navigate the inclusion of affordable housing to unlock good urban infill development. In a statement, the Victorian Planning Minister, Sonia Kilkenny, said the state government makes no apologies for delivering more homes where they're needed most.

Sabra Lane: Pat McGrath reporting.

Small business owners say they're losing thousands of dollars every year to customers who claim products they bought never arrived. That's despite business owners sending banks evidence of transactions, delivery times and confirmation from the customer. Adelaide Miller reports.

Adelaide Miller: Sydney boutique fashion store owner Ainslie says she's lost thousands of dollars to customers who claim fraudulent chargebacks through online shopping. What looks to be a genuine purchase, customers are telling their banks they never bought the item and being refunded by the store.

Ainslie: You get nervous because you have not a leg to stand on. You start doubting yourself about when you're posting things out, is it going to be safe, is it not?

Adelaide Miller: The small business owner, who was asked we only use her first name, says on one occasion she lost more than $2,000 and on another more than $500. She was notified by the payment processing platform she uses, Squarespace, and was given the opportunity to dispute the claims.

Ainslie: One of them we didn't hear a single thing. The second one we did actually get an email back from Squarespace just saying that that isn't the information that they'd been given.

Adelaide Miller: She's one of many small business owners who have been targeted in what some experts call friendly fraud, with little avenue to dispute.

Brad Kelly: There's bad actors who know that there is a zero liability feature for Visa, Mastercard, EFTPOS and Amex where if you genuinely didn't make the transaction then you're not liable for it.

Adelaide Miller: That's Brad Kelly, co-founder of the Independent Payments Forum, which represents about 120,000 small businesses and their payment systems. He says online shopping has been skyrocketing since COVID, meaning more people are trying to get away with claiming a fraudulent chargeback.

Brad Kelly: This time next year we will do more card not present, so e-commerce transactions, than we will card present. There's a complete shift in the way that the payment system works.

Adelaide Miller: Samantha Kemp is another small business owner in regional Victoria. After two fraudulent chargebacks, she took to her social media account to document her experience.

Samantha Kemp: They had confirmed, they'd placed the orders, they were legitimate, even have photos from Australia Post that the parcels were delivered and then the chargeback comes through.

Adelaide Miller: The response to her video was huge.

Samantha Kemp: I've had hundreds and hundreds of messages from other small businesses. Messaging's the same thing happening to them.

Adelaide Miller: Mr Kelly says often the easier option is to dismiss the dispute, but he says the impacts on small businesses are serious if their disputes aren't taken seriously.

Brad Kelly: So the more chargebacks they get, the more red flags are on their account. Now they can be exited if they have too many red flags.

Adelaide Miller: In a statement to the ABC, a spokesperson for the Australian Banking Association said, under the banking code, banks can claim a chargeback on a customer's behalf if the customer disputes the transaction within the card, schemes, timeframes and rules. Banks are aware of these concerns from small businesses and where possible, banks will work with small businesses to resolve any disputes as quickly as possible.

Sabra Lane: Adelaide Miller there.

That's AM for today. Thanks for your company. I'm Sabra Lane.